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	<title>Tacoma Atheists &#187; Religion</title>
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		<title>Atheist self-test</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/2451</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/2451#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[Test yourself! Three of the seven following sites are parodies, while the others are serious attempts at religious expression. Good luck choosing which are which! Landover Baptist Church 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible OBJECTIVE: Ministries Rapture Ready Time Cube Chick Tract &#8211; The Last Generation True Christian Church of Christ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<h5>Test yourself!</h5>
<p>Three of the seven following sites are parodies, while the others are serious attempts at religious expression. Good luck choosing which are which!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.landoverbaptist.org/">Landover Baptist Church</a><br />
<a href="http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm">4 Step Proof for God of the Bible</a><br />
<a href="http://objectiveministries.org/">OBJECTIVE: Ministries</a><br />
<a href="http://www.raptureready.com/">Rapture Ready</a><br />
<a href="http://www.timecube.com/">Time Cube</a><br />
<a href="http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0094/0094_01.asp">Chick Tract &#8211; The Last Generation</a><br />
<a href="http://www.truechristian.com/">True Christian Church of Christ</a></p>
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		<title>The Internet Monk interviews Dr. Valerie Tarico</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/2425</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/2425#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator></dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Valerie Tarico]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Atheism]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[Valerie Tarico, Ph.D. is a psychologist in Seattle, Washington. She is the author of The Dark Side: How Evangelical Teachings Corrupt Love and Truth, the founder of www.WisdomCommons.org, and the host of Christianity in the Public Square, Moral Politics Television, Seattle. What’s the point? 1. Evangelicals are constantly mischaracterizing non-theists. We need to listen and [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;"><em><img class="alignleft size-thumbnail wp-image-770" title="valerie" src="http://tacomaatheists.com/files/2009/01/valerie-120x150.jpg" alt="valerie" width="84" height="105" />Valerie Tarico, Ph.D. is a psychologist in Seattle, Washington. She is the author of </em><a style="outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: transparent; text-decoration: underline; color: #0070c5; font-weight: bold; background-position: initial initial; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: 0px initial initial;" title="This external link will open in a new window" href="http://www.lulu.com/content/220355" target="_blank"><em>The Dark Side: How Evangelical Teachings Corrupt Love and Truth</em></a><em>, the founder of </em><a style="outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: transparent; text-decoration: underline; color: #0070c5; font-weight: bold; background-position: initial initial; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: 0px initial initial;" title="This external link will open in a new window" href="http://www.wisdomcommons.org/" target="_blank"><em>www.WisdomCommons.org</em></a><em>, and the host of Christianity in the Public Square, Moral Politics Television, Seattle.</em></p>
<blockquote>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;"><strong>What’s the point?</strong></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">1. Evangelicals are constantly mischaracterizing non-theists. We need to listen and not preach.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">2. There is some common ground of concern here for many of us, especially in the area of the ethical practices of religions that seek to convert.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">3. We need to measure our responses against reality. Some of our typical talking points aren’t very impressive, so we might consider retiring or reworking them.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">4. I want to build a bridge. Dr. Tarico is very open to that kind of dialog.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Dr. Valerie Tarico is a former evangelical who now describes herself as a spiritual nontheist. Her book <em><a title="This external link will open in a new window" href="http://www.valerietarico.com/The_Dark_Side.html" target="_blank">The Dark Side</a></em> distills her moral and rational critique of Evangelical teachings. Tarico is a graduate of Wheaton College. She obtained a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from the University of Iowa before completing postdoctoral studies at the University of Washington. She writes regularly for the Huffington Post and hosts a monthly series on SCAN TV Seattle: <em>Moral Politics – Christianity in the Public Square.</em> Last year Tarico founded <a title="This external link will open in a new window" href="http://www.WisdomCommons.org/" target="_blank">WisdomCommons.org</a>, an interactive website with quotes, stories and poems from around the world all promoting shared ethical values. Her essays about society, faith, and family life can be found at <a title="This external link will open in a new window" href="http://www.spaces.msn.com/awaypoint" target="_blank">Awaypoint</a>.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Dr. Tarico, welcome to the Internet Monk.com interview.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">1. <em>Tell the Internet Monk.com audience the basic story of how and why you left evangelicalism. I’m particularly interested in any significant books or authors that were part of that journey.</em></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Hmm. Books and authors. I think I ended up falling from faith mostly in spite of the books I was reading to shore up my faith! I grew up in a non-denominational Bible church, and my relationship with Jesus was at the very center of who I was. In high school I was proud to stump my biology teacher with ideas from the Creation Research Society, and when I arrived at Wheaton College I think I was more devout and conservative than the school was. (I mean, they let post-millennialists and Lutherans in the door.)</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Even so, I would say that from adolescence on I struggled to fend off moral and rational contradictions in my faith, evolving more and more idiosyncratic ways of holding the pieces together. In particular, I couldn’t understand how I was going to be blissfully, perfectly happy — indifferent to the fact that other people were experiencing eternal anguish.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">The final straw came while I was completing a doctoral internship at Children’s Hospital in Seattle. My job was to provide psychological consultation to kids and families on the medical units. I was working with kids who were dying of cancer or enduring horrible, frightening treatments in order to survive it. As I listened to the explanations offered by people who believed in an all powerful, loving, perfectly good interventionist God, it seemed to me these “justifications” were comforting, but they didn’t make things just. I re-read <em>The Problem of Pain</em>, and the resident rabbi offered <em>Why Bad Things Happen to Good People</em>. Both rang hollow.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Finally I said to God, “I’m not making excuses for you anymore.” And suddenly it felt like I had been holding my God concept together for so long with duct tape and bailing wire that all I had left was tape and wire. So I walked away. I didn’t really re-engage with Christianity in any systematic way until it became clear about five years ago that Biblical ideas were dictating social policy — and killing people.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">2. <em>Anti-theists (or non-theists) of various kinds are now making their numbers and voice heard in the public square. What are two or three of the primary myths/truths about non-theism that people of traditional religious faiths are going to have to get rid of and/or adjust to in the future?</em></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Well, first of all let me say that not all nontheists are anti-theists. Most nonbelievers are simply not interested in religion. Many see it as a benign force that contributes to stable moral communities. Those who are vocally outspoken against supernaturalism are a minority. I think this is important to emphasize because the silent majority is, well, silent and so not noticed.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Humanists who join inter-spiritual dialogue or nonbelieving parents who are busy reading bedtime stories and making cookies for school bake sales don’t tend to make their voices heard on these issues. Mostly they just want to be left in peace — to not have Christians witnessing to their kids or interfering with their medical decisions.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">The myth I am confronted with most frequently is that non-Christians (especially those who have left the faith) are indifferent to morality or they reject the gift of salvation because they don’t want to be morally accountable. Because Christians self-perceive as a city on a hill, a light shining in the darkness, they assume they have the moral high ground. Some think that there is no basis for morality apart from the Bible and a redemptive relationship with Jesus. So what they fail to recognize is that much of the critique of Christianity is a moral critique, and much of the outrage is moral outrage.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Another myth is that non-theists broadly and anti-theists particularly have little interest in spirituality. In my experience many are profoundly concerned with issues not only of morality but also of meaning and unity and wonder: the small humble delights that that makes life a joy to live, the willingness to give yourself to something bigger than yourself, the beauties of love.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">3. <em>How do you feel about the high profile of atheists like Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens who consistently oppose religion of any kind as an unquestionable evil? Is there any feeling in the non-theist community that they are being portrayed as “fundamentalists” as well?</em></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Those guys definitely are anti-theists and taboo breakers to boot, which makes people love to hate them. (“<em>The Missionary Position</em>”?) But I think they change the dialogue in important ways. To cite a provocative example, Dawkins has said that religious indoctrination of children is child abuse. In reality, all education of children is indoctrination at some level. Every parent or teacher has to wrestle with the balance of top-down mind control vs open inquiry.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">But if we push past knee-jerk reactions to Dawkins’ assertion, he raises a serious moral question for believers: Is Christian indoctrination abusive more often than people like to think? Psychologist Marlene Winell, who specializes in recovery from fundamentalism, would say yes with three exclamation points.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">I personally find the “fundamentalist” label a bit of an eye roller when applied to Dawkins or Harris. It’s childish. “You stink.” “No, you stink.” The word fundamentalism has a specific history and meaning. It is about having a core set of dogma-based assertions that are nonnegotiable, and historically these fundamentals are the central tenets of Christian orthodoxy. It’s not a synonym for strident or uncompromising.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">A quick glance around any department store will give you an idea of how easily we humans confuse the quality of packaging with quality of contents. The same is true for communications. In my experience, Dawkins et al are more nuanced and thoughtful in their actual analysis than what the public reaction would suggest, and I wonder how many of their critics have actually read them versus reacting to their posture.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Other atheist and agnostic writers love to define themselves by saying, “I’m not like those guys.” It’s a way of positioning as a moderate and gaining access to an audience that feels conflicted about the role of religion in society. Tangentially, I think that within Christianity, people often fail to recognize theological fundamentalism if it is wrapped in rock music and skateboard art or in warm, loving community.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">4. <em>Setting aside the obvious issue of breaking the law, at what point does an evangelical parent, in the religious training of their own children, cross the line into what you consider the abuse of that child?</em></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Imagine you work in a mental health center and a woman says to you, “My husband says he loves me unconditionally and if I don’t love him back he is going to torture me to death as slowly as he can.” Some theologies are inherently abusive.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">When I was a teenager my youth group showed a movie called “A Thief in the Night” about the rapture, and a few years back, churches were creating “hell houses” for Halloween. In both cases, the blood and gore and implied violence were meant to be shocking and emotionally traumatic — all justified morally because shock and trauma right now are better than having people tortured forever. But a therapist like Marlene Winell, who I mentioned before, routinely sees people who developed panic disorder or chronic depression and anxiety in reaction to hell and rapture threats.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Because of my writing I sometimes receive stories that make me as a mom want to cry. One child became hysterical whenever he called out and his parents didn’t answer because he thought they’d been taken. Another repeatedly prayed the prayer of salvation — never sure that it had “taken,” until she ultimately became distraught and suicidal.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">I wonder how many children in the coming up generation were traumatized by being exposed to Mel Gibson’s blood orgy, <em>The Passion</em>. My mom’s old church took a busload including pre-adolescents — kids who largely had been sheltered from Hollywood violence and had no way to have hardened themselves against it. If it wasn’t a religious theme, the parents themselves would have thought it abusive.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Here’s the challenge, though: Causing trauma isn’t necessarily abusive. I had my appendix removed when I was five, and it was absolutely terrifying because I was in pain and tied to a hospital bed and left alone. But I don’t think of it as abusive because it was necessary. Is scaring people into salvation necessary or abusive? When you intentionally cause harm or trauma in order to prevent a greater harm, it’s not enough to be well intentioned. You also have to be right. And if you’re not, the rest of society has a responsibility to weigh whether you are causing trauma unnecessarily—especially when those being harmed are children.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">5. <em>When you see a church spending large amounts of money on children’s ministries and activities, do you believe this is ethical or unethical? Why?</em></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">If you heard that Scientologists were spending large amounts of money on outreach to kids would you believe this was ethical or unethical? What if they offered a subsidized summer camp to inner city kids like Child Evangelism Fellowship does? What if they had a storefront alcohol-free bar for underage skateboarders like City Church does in Ballard, Washington? What if they had teenage tutors slipping colorful invitation cards to kids in public middle schools like Foursquare Church does in Seattle?</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Children are hard wired to be credulous, to believe what they are told by adults who have authority over them and who nurture them. It’s the only efficient way for them to pick up all the information they need. They can’t afford to question and test when we tell them stoves burn you or cars squish you, so they’re built to trust us. Because they are vulnerable in this way, we have a particular responsibility not to exploit or abuse that trust. If you believe the exclusive salvific claims of Christian orthodoxy, then the end justifies the means. That, I think is at the heart of children’s ministries. But it’s only fair to admit that children are being offered metaphorical candy – and the ultimate goal of conversion isn’t always up front. One Jewish neighbor sent her daughter to a playful, wholesome outreach ministry at a local mega church because she thought “nondenominational” meant interfaith.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">6. <em>I’m sure that you’ve got a good response to the frequent evangelical contention that non-theists have no morals. What do you say? (And what is the mistake evangelicals are making with that objection?)</em></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">I’m kind of embarrassed for people who say this, because it means they know so little about morality and about child development. Morality doesn’t come from religion. Healthy human children come into the world primed to become moral members of society, just like they come into the world primed to acquire language. Moral emotions like empathy, shame, guilt and disgust begin to emerge during the toddler years regardless of a child’s culture or religion.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">A toddler may pat an injured peer or offer a grubby toy to an adult who is distressed. A preschooler may hide behind a couch to cover a transgression. As a child’s brain develops, moral emotions are joined by moral reasoning. By age five or six, kids have a large moral vocabulary and can argue long and loud about fairness.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Research is just starting to show how our moral emotions and reasoning are guided by powerful moral instincts. I think these instincts are the reason that across secular and moral traditions we humans share some basic agreements about goodness. The golden rule appears in some form or another in every ethical system. Sometimes it emphasizes proactively doing good. Sometimes it is only about avoiding harm. Sometimes it applies to even the smallest sentient creature, sometimes only to males of a single religion, but it’s there.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">For the last year and a half I’ve been working on a project called the Wisdom Commons, an interactive website that gathers quotes and stories and poetry from many traditions as a way to “elevate and celebrate our shared moral core.”</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">7. <em>Why would any evangelical want to read your book, <span style="font-style: normal;">The Dark Side</span>?</em></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Well, I have at least two siblings who would tell you that I’m a pawn of Satan, and you shouldn’t read it! On the other hand, several Christian friends read and provided feedback on the manuscript. Their perspective is that God doesn’t need us to cover for him or to hide from complicated realities.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">I am a non-theist and my conclusions follow my thinking, but <em>The Dark Side </em>is less a challenge to Christianity than to bibliolatry. I was taught, and still believe, that to worship human decisions and creations is idolatry. So in terms of whether someone would want to read this text, I would ask: Do you really worship God or are you getting caught by the worship of traditions and texts? Which do you twist to fit the other? When your deepest best understandings of Love and Truth bump up against creeds and canons, which win out? Given that there are human handprints all over evangelical practices and teachings, how much time have you spent learning to spot them?</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">In reality, this kind of analysis and critique is very much in keeping with the Christian tradition. The writers of the Old Testament took the Akkadian and Sumerian traditions and asked themselves, Which pieces are merely human? What is our best guess about the divine realities that lie beyond? They gleaned and wrestled and kept some fragments of the earlier stories and said, “This is our best understanding of what is Real and what is Good and how to live in moral community with each other.” The writers of the New Testament look at what the Torah had become and saw idolatry.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">Again, they gleaned and culled in light of how they understood Jesus and then offered their best understanding of God and goodness. Same with the Protestant Reformation. The reformers scraped away at obviously human encrustations like indulgences and cult of saints until they came to what they thought was the heart of the revelation. I think that the deepest challenge of the spiritual quest is not to defend the answers of our spiritual ancestors but to do as they did — to dig and scrape and take ourselves into that uncomfortable space where growth happens.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">8. <em>How would you handle it if your child became a Bible toting member of Campus Crusade for Christ? In the same vein, how should evangelicals respond if their child takes the anti-theist road?</em></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">It would be hard. My daughters are both passionate about making the world a kinder place — primarily for weird animals like sharks and manatees and kakapos and factory chickens. But more recently they got wonderfully caught up in microcredit (through Kiva.org) and started directing their birthday money toward humans. I’d be grieved to see their passion and compassion channeled by an ideology.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">My biggest grief would be if one joined a religious organization that discouraged deep loving relationships with outsiders, including family. An elderly couple I met at a humanist gathering are not allowed to see their evangelical grandchildren because they are retired scientists with a secular world view.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">When my younger brother came out as gay, it pitted my mom’s theological fundamentalism against her love for her son. Love won out. That is what I aspire to, and it is what is would hope for any parent in a similar situation.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">9. <em>Christian apologetics and cultural communication today have taken several major turns since your days citing creationists to Wheaton profs. For example, Tim Keller, a PCA pastor in Manhattan, has earned a broad hearing from the culture in his book “</em><em>The Reason for God</em><em>.” Keller is not Josh McDowell, it’s safe to say. Younger evangelicals are anti-culture war and many were pro-Obama. Many evangelicals accept evolution, although quietly, and many more distrust “Creation science.” Do any of the changes in apologetic methods and approaches since your loss of faith interest you when you are portraying evangelicals in print or speech?</em></p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">You are right. Many of the conditions that pushed me to join the public dialogue have shifted, and when I engage secular audience I quite often bring up these changes. I love it that evangelicals like Jim Wallis are complicating that dialogue from a social standpoint, and a new generation of evangelical ministers like Rob Bell are complicating the dialogue theologically.</p>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">I see the theological dialogue as most important. Unless we understand that our theological agreements are provisional and open to growth, social change is just a matter of Christianity fluctuating in response to social conditions. There have been many times in history when the balance shifted between personal /doctrinal purity and compassion/love. Then conditions change and the pendulum swings back, in part because bibliolatry and what I call ancestor worship keeps people from growing beyond the understanding of the Bible’s authors and the councils that decided the creeds and canon. My hope is that we will come to understand our spiritual heritage and our own minds well enough that the cruelties perpetrated in the name of God become a part of history.<br />
______</p>
<blockquote>
<p style="font-family: 'bitstream vera sans', verdana, sans-serif;">I’d like to thank Dr. Tarico for her time and effort in helping all of us understand this new relationship between evangelicals and non-theists. I know the vast majority of my audience is appreciative as well. Hopefully, we will hear from Dr. Tarico again as some of these issues emerge in other contexts.</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>Mom of dead girl: Sickness was test of faith</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/2409</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/2409#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Child abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Children]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Murder]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[Where&#8217;s the harm in religion? Why, here. As Evan says, &#8220;This kind of story makes me want to shout blood.&#8221; I tend to agree. AP, Tues., July 28, 2009 WAUSAU, Wisc. &#8211; The mother of an 11-year-old girl who died of undiagnosed diabetes as the family prayed for her to get better testified Tuesday that [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where&#8217;s the harm in religion? <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32191966/?GT1=43001" target="_blank">Why, here.</a> As Evan says, &#8220;This kind of story makes me want to shout blood.&#8221; I tend to agree.</p>
<blockquote><p>AP, Tues., July 28, 2009</p>
<p>WAUSAU, Wisc. &#8211; The mother of an 11-year-old girl who died of undiagnosed diabetes as the family prayed for her to get better testified Tuesday that she believes sickness is caused by sin and can be cured by God.</p>
<p>Leilani Neumann told the jury in her husband&#8217;s trial that she thought her daughter&#8217;s March 2008 illness was a test of her religious faith and she didn&#8217;t take the girl to a doctor because that would have been &#8220;complete disobedience to what we believe.&#8221;</p>
<p>Dale Neumann, 47, is charged with second-degree reckless homicide in the 2008 death of his daughter Madeline Neumann, called Kara by her parents. His wife was convicted of the same charge this spring and faces up to 25 years in prison when sentenced Oct. 6.</p>
<p>Prosecutors contend Dale Neumann recklessly killed the youngest of his four children by ignoring her deteriorating health. They claim Neumann had a legal duty to take her to a doctor.</p>
<p>Leilani Neumann testified for nearly five hours Tuesday, describing the events leading up to her daughter&#8217;s March 23, 2008, death on a mattress on the floor of the family&#8217;s rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called for help when she stopped breathing.</p>
<p>The mother said that she and her husband believed their daughter&#8217;s deteriorating condition may have been the result of a falling out with another couple, and called them once the girl was unconscious and persuaded them to come pray for the girl.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>CSI: God and rockets, a tale of science in India</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/2364</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/2364#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Chandra]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hinduism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[India]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indian Space Research Organization]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Prayer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[PSLV]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[PSLV-C6]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Space]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Superstition]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Vishnu]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tacomaatheists.com/?p=2364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From Austin Dacey, at the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry: “We are afraid that the thunderstorms might have an impact on the scheduled launch.” The Chairman of the Indian Space Research Organization, G. Madhavan Nair, was speaking to reporters in Tirupathi on the morning of May 5, 2005, as the countdown continued for the Polar Satellite [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Austin Dacey, at the <a href="http://www.csicop.org/circumnavigations/rockets/">Committee for Skeptical Inquiry</a>:</p>
<p><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-2367" title="pslv" src="http://tacomaatheists.com/files/2009/07/pslv.jpg" alt="pslv" width="164" height="194" /></p>
<p>“We are afraid that the thunderstorms might have an impact on the scheduled launch.” The Chairman of the Indian Space Research Organization, G. Madhavan Nair, was speaking to reporters in Tirupathi on the morning of May 5, 2005, as the countdown continued for the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle, a 140-foot rocket loaded with two satellites. Still, he said, he remained optimistic that lift off would occur as planned at 10:19 am.</p>
<p>Nair had reason for confidence. Since 1993 the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle, or PSLV, had been a success story of India’s space program. What’s more, earlier that morning Nair and more than a dozen other top space scientists had visited the Tirupati temple of <a href="Venkateswara" target="_blank">Lord Venkateswara</a>, where they laid a miniature prototype of the PSLV-C6 at the feet of the deity (a form of the sustainer-god Vishnu also known as <a href="Venkateswara" target="_blank">Lord Balaji</a>) and offered prayers for a successful mission.</p>
<p><img class="alignright size-medium wp-image-2373" title="ven" src="http://tacomaatheists.com/files/2009/07/ven-300x225.jpg" alt="ven" width="216" height="162" /></p>
<p>Was this some kind of prank? Was it a symbolic gesture, intended in fact not for Balaji but instead for the more earthbound audience of the public, a Hindu equivalent of those prayer breakfasts that U.S. presidents cannot seem to go without? Or did the scientists actually believe in Balaji? Did they consider the temple ritual a proper part of their public scientific activities?</p>
<p>This last question has been put to India’s scientific community as part of a national survey of professional scientists released last year by Trinity College’s Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society in cooperation with the Center for Inquiry-India, headquartered not far from Tirupathi in Hyderabad (full disclosure: I had a hand in coordinating the project while at Center for Inquiry). The first-of-its-kind study, entitled <em>&#8220;Worldviews and Opinions of Scientists: India 2007-2008&#8243;</em>, gathered responses to an email questionnaire from 1,100 participants at 130 universities and research institutes. The results reveal a fascinating portrait of science and religion in the subcontinental context.</p>
<p>Most readers of Skeptical Inquirer have committed to memory the figures from the famous 1998 survey of members of the National Academy of Sciences in the U.S.: only 7.5 percent of physicists and astronomers and 5.5 percent of biological scientists believe in a personal deity. By contrast, Worldviews found that most Indian scientists are believers. Only one-fourth are non-theists, while 66 percent identified as Hindu. Half hold that homeopathy and prayer are efficacious; 90 percent approve of the offering of university degrees in Ayurvedic medicine, a traditional practice that prescribes various herbs, oils, and spices to bring the diseased back into balance with the universe. The blessing of rocket launches turned out to be relatively contentious, with 41 percent approving the 2005 event and 46 disapproving (the remaining 13 percent were not sure what they thought about it).</p>
<p>The Worldviews survey sparked plenty of conversation, especially in the Indian press, about whether such attitudes are defensible or whether they are a dangerous betrayal of the civic duty — mentioned in the national constitution — to cultivate a “scientific temper.” However, the survey did not attempt to explain why it is that so many Indian scientists cleave to non-naturalistic worldviews, as compared to their American counterparts. After all, the rates of religiosity in the Indian and American general populations are not so dramatically different.</p>
<p>Was this simply a case of Pascal’s Wager: Ignore Venkateswara, thereby risking his displeasure and aeronautical disaster; or supplicate Venkateswara, thereby risking nothing and possibly gaining favor? One classic objection to Pascal — the so-called Many Gods objection — points out that the wagering party, who resorts to a gamble precisely because he lacks conclusive evidence about the divine, cannot know which of all the possible gods might exist, and therefore which he might be enraging by wagering on another (to say nothing of the possibility of a supreme being who smites all those and only those who believe just to escape a smiting). The unimaginable pluralism of India, with its 22 official languages and thousands of castes, extends to its supernatural precincts as well, with over 200,000 gods and goddesses crowding temples and rickshaw triptychs. Many Gods with a vengeance! In this case, one might worry about Indra, formerly the king of the gods who was demoted to running the weather and who is quite possibly disgruntled about it. As with India’s infamous bureaucracy, the trouble may lie in figuring out which official to propitiate.</p>
<p><em>Austin Dacey is contributing editor for Skeptical Inquirer and former United Nations representative for the Center for Inquiry. He is the author of The Secular Conscience: Why Belief Belongs in Public Life. His website is austindacey.com</em></p>
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		<title>The emotional side of leaving religion</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1566</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1566#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 18:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Video]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Leaving religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tacomaatheists.com/?p=1566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From what I hear, it can be difficult (although not having come from religion, I admit I don&#8217;t have the struggles a lot of folks do).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/05/28/ive-successfully-deconverted-him-now-what/" target="_blank">From what I hear, it can be difficult</a> (although not having come from religion, I admit I don&#8217;t have the struggles a lot of folks do).</p>
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		<title>Christian belief through the lens of cognitive science, part 1 of 6</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1537</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1537#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 17:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator></dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Valerie Tarico]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Archaeology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Belief]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Brain]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Catholic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cognitive]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Conversion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cult]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Fundamentalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Human]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[information]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jesus]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mind]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Monotheism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Orthodoxy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Pagan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Pentecostal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Polytheism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Psychiatry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Science]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tacomaatheists.com/?p=1537</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Valerie Tarico, Ph.D. is a psychologist in Seattle, Washington.  She is the author of The Dark Side: How Evangelical Teachings Corrupt Love and Truth, the founder of www.WisdomCommons.org, and the host of Christianity in the Public Square, Moral Politics Television, Seattle. My father died in a climbing accident when he was 59, and I was [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<address>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: &quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #242424;">Valerie Tarico, Ph.D. is a psychologist in Seattle, Washington.  She is the author of <a title="This external link will open in a new window" href="http://www.lulu.com/content/220355" target="_blank">The Dark Side: How Evangelical Teachings Corrupt Love and Truth</a>, the founder of <a title="This external link will open in a new window" href="http://www.wisdomcommons.org/" target="_blank">www.WisdomCommons.org</a></span></em><em><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: &quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">,<span style="color: #242424;"> and the host of Christianity in the Public Square, Moral Politics Television, Seattle.</span></span></em></p>
</address>
<p>My father died in a climbing accident when he was 59, and I was in my mid-thirties. In one of our last deep conversations before his 300 meter misstep, he expressed his abiding hope that I would &#8220;get right with God.&#8221; Dad was the son of Italian immigrants, all Catholics, who got converted by door-to-door Pentecostals some years after their arrival in Chicago. His mother lived out her life in the Assemblies of God denomination that had recruited them all, while Dad settled into a closely allied form of Evangelical fundamentalism without the speaking-in-tongues bit. As far as I know, he never questioned his belief that the Bible was the literally perfect word of God and that Jesus died for his sins. And yet of his six children, three of us, by Evangelical standards, are now slated for eternal torture. We are on the wrong side of a battle being waged on a spiritual plane, a battle in which those who are not on the side of God are agents of evil. If Dad were alive, our lack of belief would grieve him.</p>
<p>Religious belief is one of the most powerful forces in our world. Believers think that it has the power to save us all. Increasingly, doubters fear that the opposite may be true: a tribal mindset, unaccountable to ordinary standards of reason and evidence but armed with state of the art weapons may hasten our extinction. In the United States, religious affiliation is the best predictor of political party alliance. Almost half of Americans insist that humans were created in their present form sometime within the last 7,000 years because the Bible says so. In the Middle East, Sunnis and Shia split over theological differences that seem trivial to the rest of us, but that in their minds create tribal boundaries worthy of lethal conflict.</p>
<p>Why is religious belief so widespread and powerful? The traditional Christian answer is: because it&#8217;s true, and people who haven&#8217;t hardened their hearts against God recognize this when God&#8217;s plan of salvation is presented to them.</p>
<p>But the recent explosion of knowledge in cognitive science offers a new way to look at this question, not from a moral or theological standpoint but from a practical standpoint. What is the mental machinery that lets us form beliefs? What does evidence and reason have to do with it? How is it that six devoted Christian kids can turn into three devoted Christian adults and three agnostics?</p>
<p>The more we learn about the hardware and operating systems of the human brain — the more we understand about human information processing — the more we glean bits of insight into the religious mind.</p>
<p>This article is the first in a series of six. Each takes a look at some part of our mental machinery, how it relates to our tendency toward religious belief. The articles will focus on the following questions:</p>
<ul>
<li>How does the structure of human information processing pre-dispose us to religious thinking? Given how our minds work, what kinds of religious beliefs are possible and what kinds are we immune to?</li>
<li>How do we know what we know? What gives us a feeling of certainty? What is the relation between reason, evidence, and our sense of knowing?</li>
<li>How do conversion experiences work?  What makes religious conversion transformative?</li>
<li>How does our social group influence or even control our religious beliefs? How do beliefs get transmitted from one person to another?</li>
<li>Why do missionaries target children? How does religious identity develop in childhood? How is belief in childhood different from belief acquired as an adult?</li>
<li>What makes beliefs resistant to change? What causes people to lose belief? When are people open to re-examining religious assumptions?</li>
</ul>
<p>Before looking at these questions, it is helpful to understand why belief is so important in Christianity. For traditional Christians, belief is the heart of the Christian religion. It is the toggle that sends people to heaven or hell. In the final analysis, believing that Jesus Christ died as a &#8216;propitiation&#8217; for your sins is the thing that matters to God. No matter how kind and loving your life may be, no matter that you strive to love your neighbor as yourself, no matter what great things you may accomplish in the service of humanity or the world at large — if you believe wrong you are doomed.</p>
<p>This focus on belief is not characteristic of all religions. In the Ancient Near East, the birthplace of Christianity, pagan religions placed little emphasis on belief. The existence of a supernatural world was broadly assumed because there seemed to be little other way to explain the good and bad things that happen to people or natural events like storms, earthquakes, illness, birth and death. But the point of religion wasn&#8217;t belief. It was to take care of the gods so that they would take care of you and your community. The word &#8220;cult&#8221; (Latin cultus, literally care) is related to the word &#8220;cultivation.&#8221; We talk now about cultivating ground so that it will bear fruit. Non-profits talk about &#8220;cultivating donors.&#8221; That was what the gods cared about, and so it was the heart of religious practice.</p>
<p>From the beginning, Christianity was different. Jesus worshipers cared tremendously about right belief, or orthodoxy. Bart Ehrman&#8217;s book, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1243357865&amp;sr=8-1" target="_blank"><em>Lost Christianities</em></a>, offers a fascinating window into the struggles that went on during the first and second centuries as groups with different beliefs about Jesus criticized and competed with each other, and one of them won out.</p>
<p>Some of groups (e.g. Ebionites) believed that Jesus was a fully human Jewish messiah and that Jesus worshipers must follow the law. Others (e.g. Marcionites) believed that Jesus was a being from the spirit world who only took on human likeness. Still others (Gnostics) believed that the human Jesus was inhabited by a divine &#8220;Eon&#8221; during the years of his ministry — revealing to his followers secret knowledge that would let them escape this corrupt mortal plane. Others, now known as proto-orthodox or Roman, had ideas about Jesus that lead to the views of Christians today. (&#8220;Roman Catholic&#8221; means Roman universal.) What all of these groups agreed on was that it was tremendously important to believe the right thing about who Jesus was and what Christianity should be.</p>
<p>This emphasis on right belief was and is unique to monotheism. It existed in a rudimentary form in Judaism, but even today Judaism is more concerned with living right than believing right. Christianity&#8217;s exclusive truth claims and emphasis on right belief helped it to out-compete other religions in the Roman Empire. Polytheists often are quite agreeable to adding another god to their pantheon. Christians could persuade pagans to add the Jesus-god and then could wean them off of the others. Today, in India, for example, Evangelical missionaries are much more likely to target Hindus than Sikhs or Muslims who would have to immediately abandon their primary religion in order to embrace the idea of Jesus as a god.</p>
<p>Eastern religions don&#8217;t share Christianity&#8217;s concern with belief. The emphasis is more on practice or &#8220;praxis&#8221; — spiritual living, self-renunciation, insight or enlightenment — and among ordinary people, a sort of cult or care-taking of the gods like that practiced by ancient pagans. Right belief isn&#8217;t what lets you move up through cycles of reincarnation or attain nirvana. Nor is it what gets you the favor of gods.</p>
<p>Just as biological organisms have many different adaptive or reproductive strategies, so religions compete for human mind share (market share) in different ways. An emphasis on propagating belief (ie. evangelism) and purity of belief (ie. orthodoxy) is only one of those.</p>
<p>In the late 19th and early 20th Century, a movement called modernism emerged within Christianity. Modernist theologians began re-examining traditional orthodox beliefs in light of what we now know about linguistics, archaeology, psychiatry, biology, and human history. In this light, traditional Christian certainties looked less certain, and many modernist Christians are more like members of Eastern Religions in that their primary concern is with spiritual practice rather than belief. But a backlash emerged in response to modernism. People who proudly called themselves fundamentalists insisted that no one who didn&#8217;t hold the traditional beliefs was a real Christian. Evangelicals inherited the fundamentalist torch, and even some of the more inquiring denominations have reverted back toward emphasis on right belief.</p>
<p>This is the mindset that dominates Christianity in the public square. It is the mindset that sends Christian missionaries out into the world seeking converts in impoverished corners of the planet. It is the mindset that prints Bibles to be distributed in Iraq and has organized to establish control of the American military hierarchy, seeking to create an &#8220;army of Christian soldiers.&#8221; To understand American Christianity specifically or Western religion more broadly, it is necessary to understand the psychology of belief.</p>
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		<title>Noam Chomsky on American religiosity</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1535</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1535#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 17:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Quotes]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Miracles]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Noam Chomsky]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sociology]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[&#8220;I was just looking at a study by an American sociologist (published in England) of comparative religious attitudes in various countries. The figures are shocking. Three quarters of the American population literally believe in religious miracles. The numbers who believe in the devil, in resurrection, in God doing this and that — it&#8217;s astonishing. These [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;I was just looking at a study by an American sociologist (published in England) of comparative religious attitudes in various countries. The figures are shocking. Three quarters of the American population literally believe in religious miracles. The numbers who believe in the devil, in resurrection, in God doing this and that — it&#8217;s astonishing. These numbers aren&#8217;t duplicated anywhere else in the industrial world. You&#8217;d have to maybe go to mosques in Iran or do a poll among old ladies in Sicily to get numbers like this. Yet this is the American population.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Source: <a class="external text" title="http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/pfrm/pfrm-12.html" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/pfrm/pfrm-12.html"><em>The Prosperous Few and the Restless Many</em></a></p>
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		<title>I&#8217;d say that&#8217;s a win</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1440</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1440#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 03:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Humor]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[God's love]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Irony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://failblog.org/2009/05/15/church-sign-fail/" target="_blank"><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-1441" src="http://www.tacomaatheists.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fail-owned-god-love-fail.jpg" alt="" width="375" height="500" /></a></p>
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		<title>Life of Brian debate in 1979</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1417</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1417#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 22:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Video]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Humor]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Interview]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Life of Brian]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Monty Python]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Movies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Parody]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tacomaatheists.com/?p=1417</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think they&#8217;re apologizing a bit too much for this film. Of course, though, in 1979, you couldn&#8217;t just come right out and tell people you were an atheist, I suppose, and that your film was ridiculing religion.You&#8217;d have a bit of trouble finding work. It&#8217;s still that way in many parts of the country. [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think they&#8217;re apologizing <em>a bit too much</em> for this film. Of course, though, in 1979, you couldn&#8217;t just come right out and tell people you were an atheist, I suppose, and that your film <em>was</em> ridiculing religion.You&#8217;d have a bit of trouble finding work. It&#8217;s still that way in many parts of the country. Even here, there is a significant portion of the population that will 1) mock you, 2) curse at you, or 3) fight with you about your lack of belief. Never mind that it doesn&#8217;t inconvenience them in the least.</p>
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		<title>For the last time…</title>
		<link>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1337</link>
		<comments>http://tacomaatheist.com/archives/1337#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 03:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mythology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Skepticism]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tacomaatheists.com/?p=1337</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hearsay written 50+ years after the fact (so to speak) is NOT EVIDENCE. The bible is no more evidence for the resurrection than the Hitchhiker&#8217;s Guide to the Galaxy is of interstellar bypasses. Some biblical evidences of the resurrection of Jesus include*: Jesus’ resurrection was prophesied in advance (Isa 53:8-12) Jesus predicted his resurrection (Matt [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hearsay written 50+ years after the fact (so to speak) is NOT <a href="http://rss.marshillchurch.org/~r/WestSeattle/~3/2ajTjjRrtHI/" target="_blank">EVIDENCE</a>. The bible is no more evidence for the resurrection than the Hitchhiker&#8217;s Guide to the Galaxy is of interstellar bypasses.</p>
<blockquote><p>Some biblical evidences of the resurrection of Jesus include*:</p>
<ol>
<li>Jesus’ resurrection was prophesied in advance (Isa 53:8-12)</li>
<li>Jesus predicted his resurrection (Matt 12:38-40; Mk 8:31; Jn 2:18-22)</li>
<li>Jesus died on the cross (Jn 19:28-37) but appeared physically alive three days after his death (Matt 28:9; Jn 20:17; Jn 20:20-28; Lk 24:36-43)</li>
<li>Jesus was buried in a tomb that was easy to find (Jn 19:38-42) and heavily guarded (Matt 27:66)</li>
<li>Jesus’ resurrection was recorded as scripture shortly after it occurred</li>
<li>Jesus’ resurrection was celebrated in the earliest church creeds (1 Cor 15:3-4)</li>
<li>Jesus’ resurrection convinced his family to worship him as God. (Jn 7:5; 1 Cor 15:7; James 1:1; Acts 12:17; 15-12-21)</li>
<li>Jesus’ resurrection was confirmed by his most bitter enemies, such as Paul. (Acts 9; 1 Cor 15:1-8)</li>
</ol>
</blockquote>
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